Supplement Changes/Sore?


Kathleen Rauchle
 

Hello Everyone,

I have not asked any questions for sometime, but I just updated Echo's case history and added her latest hoof pics and also current hay analysis's. We have been feeding Equi-Shine Supplement for her all this time but I have been feeling it is not enough.  Her cresty neck has not changed all year and she still has fat pads on her rump and behind shoulders.  She has been getting hay only since August (tried short turnout did not work).  In Sept I gradually was switching her from Equi-shine to Mad Barn Amino Trace, while gradually ending the Heiro supplement.  She is currently on about 20 lbs of hay mixed between the small squares and large rounds.  

After 5 days of being at full dose of Amino Trace and no Heiro.  She suddenly did not want it.  She would eat around the Amino Trace.  I added some Equi-shine back and she liked it.  So one day she did not get her full 1/2 dose of Thyro-L.  I got her to eat more but not all. So next day I dropped the Amino Trace to 1/4  2 oz amount and Equi-shine back to 1/2 about 2 oz. amount.  She ate all her food but she was suddenly sore in her front hooves yesterday 10/11/21 along with digital pulse in all 4 hooves which we had a slight digital pulse when sitting idle too long but never in all four.  

Up until about 2 weeks ago we started riding 4-5 times a week at 30 intervals walk and trot.  (reason for not last 2 weeks is hurt back falling off.)

What could have caused this?

Could it be the lack of supplement going in? Now that the Heiro is done is she not getting enough Mag Oxide?

Could it be the one day not having the correct Thyro-L dose?

Our could it be the sudden lack of exercise the last 2 weeks?

I am at a loss and feeling really defeated.  We have been doing good for a while now and felt we were on track.  She walks and trots just fine on soft ground.

My real question is.  Would I be better off just keeping her on the Equi-shine supplement, adding Mag Oxide, and start  adding in the Chasteberry and Jaiolugan right away?

I am afraid of trying the Amino Trace again in case she does not like it.  I use Teff pellets also just to mask taste of all the powders she is getting.

Any help is greatly appreciated.
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Kathleen,

She is getting more than enough magnesium from her hays alone.  The Thyro-L and cinnamon don't have anything to do with this either. Let's take a deeper look.

D:  Diagnosis. Insulins have been clearly abnormal and not too
far from the acute laminitis zone.  She's young to have PPID but it is possible the normal seasonal ACTH rise is pushing her over the edge into laminitis. This is also a common time of year for Lyme to rear its head and you know she has it. Check titers.

D:  Diet.  There's no way to tell which supplement is best for her because your hay analyses are incomplete and do not contain trace minerals.  Are you weighing all hay or just estimating what she eats? Both hays have very low sulfur which impacts sulfur amino acid levels and hoof quality. The squares have a high end sugar/starch which means individual bales in the load could be too high. There is also a high protein level which together with the low sulfur is a nitrate risk and you should get the nitrate level tested. Have you stuck to dry lot since August?

T:Trim: Post trim photos looked pretty good but I think I would be more aggressive about backing up the toes. The March films were much improved but toes still too long.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kathleen Rauchle
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon for the response. 

Are my hay analysis incomplete because they do not have the mineral breakdown?  I know I can send in another analysis to Dairyland labs to get the trace minerals.  (I should have just did that right away). 

We have been weighing for the most part.  She gets the small square hay in 3/4 inches hole bags mixed with the large bale hay and then get the difference in either a 1 3/4 net or the porta grazer of just the round bale hay.  We have been giving a bit extra because I am afraid of her sitting too long without hay.  Even with the small hole net she still eats through it too fast. (of course she likes the small square hay more that is why I started to mix it)  She has been having left over round bale hay at night the last few days. Back in the early spring when she was restricted she started to eat the other horse's manure, worried she will start to do that again.

She has been in dry lot 100% since August(It was a short time we tried grass in August about 2 weeks).  Otherwise before then she was also only in the dry lot all spring.  Some grass started to take off in the early spring in the dry lot and we had to make it smaller, because one night may her slightly sore again. I will not lie she is still reaching under fence to eat what she can, its not much but could it make a difference enough?  I have been using a natural weed killer spray (vinegar) to keep it back but has not been possible with the constant rain this lately.

I was thinking the toe could come back a bit more also.  Was a bit disappointed in my last Cody James rasp, feels like it takes more effort to use than last one.  I trim every 2 weeks.
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Kathleen Rauchle
 

I thought of another question.  When Echo was diagnosed with Lymes.  The Vet did a quick at farm test.  When I asked her to run numbers again (the ones from March) She said her notes said Ana plasma not Lyme disease.  Which was also confusing because she had Lyme disease symptoms not  Ana plasma symptoms.  I didn't do the Ana Plasma test because I thought it was Lymes and that test was another $100...alone.  Should I still do Lyme titer again anyway?

Thank you,
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, trace minerals on the hays and you need to ask if it was NIR analysis. If so, repeat the sugar and starch with wet chemistry. Also add nitrates on the small squares.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I would ask for the Lyme multiplex from Cornell.  The odds of having Anaplasma but not Lyme are pretty long.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kathleen Rauchle
 

Sorry to seem a bit slow, but what exactly does the nitrates cause?  I know it means something but not sure what exactly.  Too much Nitrate is the issue and that is because the protein is too high?  I know the hay analysis was done with wet chemistry, but I will ask what type analysis it is.

I am getting the hay probe again tonight and will take new samples and add Nitrate to the small squares.  I should have more results to post this week.
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nitrate is metabolized to nitrite which interferes with oxygen carrying capacity in the blood. There are many reports of it causing or worsening hoof pain.

Protein on a hay analysis is actually a guesstimate made by measuring nitrogen. When protein is unusually high like yours was, there can be nitrate nitrogen contributing to that protein estimate.

If you know the hay analysis was wet chemistry that's all we need to know.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

 she is still reaching under fence to eat what she can, its not much but could it make a difference enough?
Short answer: yes.  If you can add an electric line to the bottom or a physical barrier, like plywood or snow fencing, so she can't reach through, that is the easiest way to stop this.  I sympathize with you on the battle against grass when it rains...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Kathleen Rauchle
 

Good to know.  I did not know that high protein could actually have nitrates and lead to blood flow issues.  I just submitted the samples in for wet chemistry with full trace mineral test and included the nitrates for the small squares.  The first analysis are only NIR. 

I learned so much in a short time.  So as I get results I will post them.

If the Nitrates are too high in the hay what do we do to balance it out or can we balance it out?

Thank you
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Kathleen Rauchle
 


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If nitrates are high you can soak it - which wouldn't be a bad idea anyway!

Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Kathleen Rauchle
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,

I am still waiting on results for the hay. She is more sore yesterday and today, than before. Digital Pulse in all four hooves now, which it was only the fronts before.

But now I am thinking what grass is growing on the edge of her dry lot is still too much and she could be getting sore from that? 

I started to cover up the grass with dirt and rock, then sprayed with vinegar and Epsom salt what I couldn't get to yesterday. (Will work on that again tonight).

It seemed as if when we turned the fence on she got more sore. I know she got shocked about 3 times could the percussion of her jumping cause a flare up also? Or does that seem crazy?

We were doing so well before this....

Thank you,

--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Kathleen, 

Are you soaking her hay?  You will probably see an improvement in pain very quickly if you start.  Can you physically block her from accessing the dry lot where the grass is growing at the edge?  At least until you get the grass killed?

Excessive mechanical force on the hooves during a laminitis flareup can cause more pain.  That is why we don't want other horses pushing them around or any forced exercise, and any spook or startle could have the same effect.  Her hooves are already tender and the laminae are already compromised, so you can imagine that excess force could worsen it.  Is she in boots with pads?

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


Kathleen Rauchle
 

The small square hay I have started to soak. The drylot is her only area. So covered the whole edge with dirt and it already seems to be helping. She goes out of her way to eat 2 blades of grass growing in rocks even when she has hay available. Drives me nuts. 

She did have a high sole ridge develop and harden frog. So I cleaned up her sole ridge and the hard frog and it helped a lot. She is much more comfortable. 

We should be getting hay results back by Wednesday.
--
Kathleen R
Central WI 
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=252630

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_top_field_1st_crop_rounds_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395849_1264%20%282%29.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathleen%20and%20Echo/KATHLEEN_RAUCHLE_2021_2nd_crop_sm.sq.grass_Mixed_grass_hay_2021-08-27_395848_1263%20%282%29.pdf