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Uploaded New trim photos. Hoping for comments to prevent going in wrong direction with anything.

Pat Gauvreau
 

I’d love some comments on Savannah’s last trims from October and November.  I don’t want to let any errors in trim be perpetuated by not getting ECIR feedback. Wondering if walls should touch the ground or not. All support taken on soles. Had a visiting farrier ask to look at her feet and he mentioned her walls have no contact with ground so got me worried.
Im also concerned with medial lateral balance. Heels seem off to me. No pics ever taken from behind. 
On another note. I uploaded November twice by mistake and marked one batch as December. How can I delete the duplicate?  
Thanks Pat. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

 

Hi, Pat - the trim looks good to me. Lavinia is unavailable for mark-ups, etc, until maybe February. In the meantime, Nancy posted a very useful set of links and guidelines here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/28241519#229218  

I am copying the original message below, as well.

To delete photos, go to the photo, and click on Edit at the bottom. It will come up with a new page, with a red Delete button at the bottom.

How is Savannah feeling?

Many of our members read the forum every day to learn more to support the health of their horses. If that’s you, then you may have noticed two things:
 
(1) All our volunteers are dedicating most of their free time to help you.
 
and
 
(2) Trim is a huge component that needs to be dealt with to be successful in rehab.
 
You may have also noticed that Lavinia has been working well beyond overtime helping folks understand what is needed for their ongoing hoof care.
 
Because she needs a break, we’re asking Lavinia to hold off on doing any more mark-ups, starting today, until into the new year. During this time she will be putting together a trim program to make sure new folks are guided and all of us continue to learn what we must to help our own horses.
 
Here’s what you can do in the meanwhile:
• Keep breathing.
• Take digital photos of your horse’s feet as ECIR recommends.
 
• Load them on your computer or phone, or print them out to study.
• Use the following resources to help train your eye:
All the archived trim evaluations and mark-ups.  There are many to be learned from.
 
• Proceedings from the 2013, 2015 and 2017 (soon to be released)  NO Laminitis! Conference on ecirhorse.org
• If you don’t know about Druid, you may find this case history to be helpful, uplifting even:  http://www.ironfreehoof.com/severe-laminitis-case-study.html
• Mark where you think the trim needs to go.
• Review with your hoof pro, or have at it if you are trimming yourself.
• Observe and make notes on how your horse responds.
• Post specific questions on what you have seen to the group.

Remember one way or another, the work has to be done over time to bring the horse back to a physiologically correct foot. This takes not only growing good laminae connection but also rebuilding the hind end (caudal) of the foot.

Taking a little foot more often - even every two or three days — allows your horse to adjust more slowly and gives you more opportunity to train your eye. At a minimum, a rotated or distal descent foot needs to be trimmed every two to three weeks.  
 
Thanks for your help and for giving Lavinia a break. 
 
You can do this. 

-- 
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003 
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Pat Gauvreau
 

Hi Jaini
thanks for commenting. I tried printing but it doesn’t turn out. Could be my printer.
Savannah is not too bad but VERY sore after her trims. I was wondering if she should have her walls touch the ground to take bearing surface of sole alone. Her frogs are very narrow at heels also.  Don’t know why they don’t spread out at heels like they should. Going to try extending time between trims to allow more growth.  Turning is very ouchy for her. It’s too muddy  with water to wear boots. 
Been putting her on pasture “alone” for couple hours in cloudy weather just so she gets some movement and it really lifts her spirits. She loves the turn out and walks around at her leisure grazing. I haven’t put her out since the frost appeared. She’s not happy with confinement again. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

 

Hi, Pat - it is important for her to be able to be turned out and amble around, but she should be wearing a muzzle so that she isn't grazing.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Pat,

Please read this article as many times as it takes to have an "Ah, ha!!" moment.

http://hoofrehab.com/DistalDescent.htm

She does not need longer between trims or her walls weightbearing - just the opposite. She should be sore without boots at this stage of her rehab. Her frogs/heels/hind foot internal structures need to engage and strengthen. Her trim has only been forcing them to do that for a few weeks and her foot will very quickly become too far forward again.

She should not have been grazing at all. She can go out but only with a sealed muzzle.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001

 

Dr. Kellon is right on the money.  And, we all need to remember that Savannah has had laminitis, on and off, for eight years; and a really shocking trim/hoof presentation for a long time as well. It will take some time for her feet to be fully functional again (although I strongly believe they will be); but any diet hiccups (like grazing) will set her back; and letting the trim get away again will also set her back. 

You are doing such a great job, and your trimmer is simply fabulous. Keep on with the boots for comfort, and keep the diet tight. It takes a full 9 to 12 months for decent hoof growth to come from the coronet to the bottom of the foot, which is why we say "no riding, and no lunging, for 6 to 12 months after laminitis" (and after the actual laminitis triggers have been removed, and healing has begun). 


--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Pat Gauvreau
 

Thanks Jaini
shes not been on pasture this week due to frost so will muzzle her next time. She always rolls and rubs it off and have tried different brands of but she still gets them half off.
It’s been too cold (my hands freeze) to put boots on lately and mud and puddles are the problem now. I’ll get them on in a few days as weather is supposed to get warmer. 
I’ll keep her on the same trim schedule then if you don’t think her feet are too small and it’s ok not to have any wall touching the ground. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Josephine Trott
 

HI Pat,
You can try braiding the headpiece of her muzzle halter into her mane to stop her rubbing it off over her ears.  Is the throat latch adjustable so you can also shorten that and make it more difficult to rub off?
best
josie
davis ca 06/09

celestinefarm
 

Pat, a couple of additional tips. Make sure that the halter part of her muzzle fits very closely around her throatlatch. You want the halter to fit snugly. Here is a link to a photo of a well fitted halter that helps keep muzzles in place. Considering how many photos are online of poorly fitting halters in halter fitting articles, I gave up and went to the show horse sites.
https://horseandrider.com/health-and-advice/showhalter-fit-54742

You can also put a fly mask on over the muzzle halter, which will help with keeping it in place.

And , this is my opinion, but based on years of experience with a lot of muzzling. if your horse should not be grazing, then IMO, she shouldn't be turned out in a pasture. I am a zero fan of turning horses out with a blocked muzzle.. Putting a horse in a grass filled pasture,  with no ability to graze any of it , is first asking for the horse to spend it's time upset and trying everything to get the muzzle off, 2. counter productive to what you are trying to achieve with getting her to move around, exercise, etc.  You are much better, IMO, to find even a small turnout area such as a round pen, paddock off of a stall, etc. with no grass, pull any weeds out of it, and then put up a couple of hay nets on opposite sides to encourage some movement. Take her for walks, put a pasture toy in her enclosure, etc. A horse in a small pen with something to do , whether it's a hay net, ball, etc. is far better off, IMO, than putting an at risk horse into a pasture alone with a taped up muzzle who then spends time not moving around, but rolling, pawing, and trying to rub the muzzle off. If unsuccessful , they are upset and simply standing or turning around in one place, on fragile feet. If successful, now they are mowing down grass as fast as they can , leading to potential colic and laminitis.

For example, the introductory video for ECIRhorse.org has excellent examples of horses in smaller turnout paddocks who have been rehabbed from laminitis and are now happy and healthy. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Helen Temps
 

Both my IR mare and donkey readily accept the muzzle.  They seem to think it's better to be muzzled and out in the pasture with the other mare (dominant mare) even with green grass, than to be 'left behind' in a dry lot.  They don't seem worried or upset at all, just stand under a tree where they can easily see the unmuzzled mare.  Sometimes I think we place too many 'human emotions' and reactions on our horses.  They really aren't that deep of thinkers! 

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Chloe.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Amen, Helen!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001

Paula Hancock
 

I turn my two Morgans out with blocked muzzles for 45 minutes or so, while I clean paddocks.  They spend most of the time muzzle boxing, which includes rearing and trying to take each other down by getting the muzzle under the elbow of the other one.  I have only had one episode of muzzle failure in the pasture where Cory got his muzzle off and was grazing.  I was terrified that he of all horses had gotten some grass, but no obvious issues.  It was at night in the summer, he had been ridden that day, the pasture had no over grazed areas, he had less than 45 minutes of grass and I marched his butt around in my arena for an hour and a half post grazing in hopes of avoiding issues.  It was too dark to ride or I would have put him to work more vigorously.  I can't leave them out longer than 45 minutes or they start to tear the fence down with their muzzles.  Clever boys!
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (?)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx