Urgent advice please?


talley_catherine@...
 

Hi All,

I am new here with just having joined yesterday am a bit overwhelmed and didn't anticipate having to ask a question so soon but am hoping I might be able to get some quick guidance for blood work as the vet is coming back tomorrow and I want him to run bloods as per the protocols here. *Question is at the bottom, the rest is background info.

My mare was diagnosed with laminitis in early Dec. She is 8 years old, and I bred her. She is a warmblood, 16.1hh and came out as a "fat" foal ie. everyone commented on her neck as she was quite solid and overall, for a foal, she was quite chunky. I have had no problems with laminitis until December 2021. However, she was increasingly sore after trimming each time to the point where I changed farriers and got a barefoot trimmer who never removes any sole. The soreness was probably present for a good 6-9 months prior to this episode but went away after about a week after the trim. We have had extremely wet conditions this summer with a La Nina. I am in Australia, NSW. I had restricted her grazing and she was fed once per day with just lucerne chaff, a small amount of lupins and copra, as well as salt and equine vitamins and minerals. She had access to a small amount of grassy lucerne hay.

She had an initial a body score of 6/9 (per vet) and initial calculations using a weight tape gave her a weight of 548 kg (x2.2 = 1201lb). She is 16.1hh. Using measurements (length/girth) she was 559kg. I did not have access to any alternative hay so started soaking what I had and cut her intake to 8kg per day, plus 600g beet for supplements/salt. She did not appear to be losing weight so the vet advised to cut to 6kg. Subsequently I managed to source some Teff hay and have just sent it for testing. I am still soaking it and have now transitioned her to all Teff, plus 1kg beet per day. She is on a total of 7kg (hay + beet) per day, plus salt, [brand] Equine Vitamins and Minerals (Premium Blend), CEN oil, total 30mL per day.

With initial bute 10mL for 2 days, then 5mL for 3 days, her pain reduced significantly. She is confined in a sandy round yard. She was comfortable on the sand and walking on grass, but very sore on the gravel driveway still.

Initial xrays showed no rotation of the pedal bone, and sole depth of 11.5 and 10.5 cm. The toe was long and we commenced corrective trimming. She has had 3 trims, each 2 weeks apart. She appears more sore with less toe. 

After stabilising, the vet recommended we test for EMS using the karo light corn syrup per the ECEIM consensus statement on equine metabolic syndrome J Vet Intern Med 2019; 33: 335-349.

Saskia had lost some weight by then tape 518kg (x2.2 = 1140lb) and length/girth measurement 526kg (x 2.2 = 1157lb) so the vet recommended going with 240mL light karo corn syrup. (100mL per kg)

We did this last Friday (yes, fasted, sorry. She had hay overnight but I do not know what time she finished it and she had the test the first thing in the morning). Vet examined her again and with hoof testers she was still sore in the toe area, but sound on the grass and appeared sound on the sand (although I think not quite "normal" for her).

On Saturday she looked a little sore so I did not hand walk her. On Sunday, she was VERY sore - difficulty walking and turning. I called the vet clinic and was advised to give bute 10mL. I did this on Sunday and then 5mL on Monday (yesterday). She looked more comfortable by Monday and my therapy boots arrived and after getting used to them she was extremely comfortable to walk around in them. In fact, I haven't seen her walk "normally" like that for a while so it was quite striking the difference the boots made.

After the episode, I expected to have a result with a very high insulin level but the vet just called me and her results were as follows:

Insulin 5mU/mL (RR <20 mU/mL normal)
Plasma glucose 6.1 mmol/L (RR 3.9-6.5mmol/L)
Serum glucose 4.6 mmol/L
Upon discussion with the vet, I want him to run bloods per the protocols here. He is coming back at 9am tomorrow and will also re-xray.

*QUESTION: What bloods should I get the vet to do?

(( I need to also get clear about the feeding protocol prior to taking blood so will dig around again to try to find that but if someone could link it that would be super helpful - sorry, but still trying to find stuff. (Need to also know what collection tubes to use. I think I saw somewhere that Gribbles Pathology run appropriate tests for Australia, but will see if I can find that again).))

Vetnostics is the lab the clinic normally uses. I can also call them and ask any questions. (I am actually a medical scientist by training and worked in a pathology lab for many years so have some understanding of the science). Thanks so much!!
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013


Maxine McArthur
 

Cathy, you’ll get a full welcome letter shortly, but just wanted to quickly answer the bloodwork question. If you want to test for PPID you’ll need to ask for a basal (aka endogenous) ACTH test. Use a purple top EDTA plasma tube. Blood needs to be kept chilled then spun within four hours of the draw. Most vets then freeze it overnight and send to the lab by courier the next day. No exercise or trailering or sedation before the blood draw—nice and peaceful at home is what you want. My vet uses Charles Sturt Uni at Wagga for testing, but I’ve had other vets send samples to Vetnostics and also Idexx with no problem. 

More info on diagnostic testing on our website here: 

https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


talley_catherine@...
 

Thanks, Maxine. Vet doesn't think PPID. Do you think I should do it anyway? What about re-running insulin not fasted? (And I am confused about the feeding. ie if the test was at 9am, should I feed four hours prior, just hay?) Do I need to do leptin? I also cannot find the info on the ratios and the related risk but I know I read it somewhere?
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


Bobbie Day
 

Hello Cathy,
Sounds like your Saskia is keeping you busy! We are here to help though. Sounds like you have a lot of questions, I will do my best to answer them and hopefully some of our more experienced mods will chime in as well so we can get you the help you're seeking before your appointment. I think the welcome message that will be included will also help to answer your questions.
Please note that there are country specific folders for those they need additional resources. 
We don't recommend testing with Karo, please see the study that Dr.Kellon provided about its poor reliability here https://pubmed.ncbi.nim.nih.gov/27381044/ 
We also ask if at all possible do not fast your equine before testing, if you click on the blue hyperlinks on the diagnosis section it goes into more depth as to why it's not recommended. 
Be extremely careful about using nasids (Bute, previcox, banamine), It not only masks pain but can damage the feet and encourage movement in her already fragile feet. Instead, we suggest using a more natural approach for pain control as in Devils Claw and or Jiaogulan. I would keep her off any kind of grass for the time being until you have a good diagnosis. It sounds like she is definitely more comfortable in boots so I would leave those on and don't force her to move. I am assuming that by "beet" you mean beet pulp? Beep pulp is a carrier and feed for many of us just be sure you rinse/soak/rinse so you can remove any excess dirt and sugar.
As promised below is your official welcome message, I think you will find it clears up a lot of your questions but please don't hesitate to ask if you need additional help.

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS)/Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or EMS/IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while EMS/IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: EMS is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an EMS/IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine (look under the Hay Balancing file if you want professional help balancing). If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the EMS/IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for EMS/IR individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to EMS/IR equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 






Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie/Maggie%20and%20Bobbie%202021.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


talley_catherine@...
 

Thank you, Bobbie. I have read this info quite a few times and (unfortunately) have been doing this a little while now with respect to the diet etc. (I have been in a Facebook group that follows Dr Kellon's advice and it has been very helpful but it is a bit of a "process" for me to get across all the info and I have been following my vet's advice as well. I only landed here yesterday.

I have sent some hay to be tested but no results yet. Horse is confined, xrayed, trimmed etc. Just mostly confused on what to do now with the blood tests.

I did send the vet the info on the insulin testing but he sent me the recommendations from the ECEIM (per above) and I read it and went with that protocol at his suggestion as it reviewed a number of alternatives and concluded this was the most reliable. I am not across all the literature unfortunately. I had read the info about not fasting but I must admit, I found it confusing what "to do" and "NOT to do" ie. I didn't see it spelled out anywhere DO NOT do Karo test :( It might be somewhere but I am finding there is so much info, it seems to be unfolding for me bit by bit as I read things).

With where I am at now, specifically, can you tell me, please:
Should I repeat the insulin/glucose tests non-fasting (and by non-fasting, how long before vet visit should I feed the horse? If the vet is coming at 9am, can I give her her normal breakfast of beet pulp at 6.30 am and soaked hay 1.5 hrs later so she has just eaten when he arrives to do the bloods?)
Do I need to do ACTH?
Do I need to do leptin?
Do I need to do iron tests?
Anything else to test for?
Where is the explanation of what the ratios mean when you do the calculation? (Although I think my "normal" insulin result will throw this off). Do I use serum or plasma glucose for the calculation?
[And can she have boots on 24hrs or do I need to give her feet a break from them?]

Thanks so much!!
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'm going to give you a little background to hopefully make sense of things. The problem with insulin testing is what is called a normal result. These are statistical ranges, not true normals. There is also no guarantee the horses assumed to be normal were truly normal and there is no standardization of feeding or exercise.  If you go to the equine nutrition literature you will see that fasted insulins in horses with normal insulin sensitivity are well below 10.

In other words, there is nothing wrong with a fasting insulin test. It's the cutoffs for normal that were, and are, wrong. https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-021-02781-5 . We have been using the Va Polytechnic proxies (also validated in that study) with the horses fed only known safe hay or soaked hay because that duplicates the feeding conditions of the Va study. The proxies are most helpful when the insulin result is borderline. In most cases, insulin alone is sufficient.

If you want a fed test she must have hay available all night and on the day of testing. Hay only.

Warmbloods rarely have insulin problems unless they also have PPID. If this repeat insulin is also normal, her laminitis diagnosis should be revisited. Could you post the radiographs?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Bobbie Day
 
Edited

Cathy,
Sorry for the delay, it looks like Dr. Kellon answered your question about the tests (thank you Dr.K) and the feeding before testing but I will address the question regarding her boots.
Many here (including myself) have left boots on for almost 24/7 I say almost because it's important to take them off sometime during this time to make sure your horse doesn't have any rubs and or issues wearing them for that long and to clean them out etc.  I don't know how cold it is there or if it is at all, Maxine would need to answer this part but if the temperatures are dipping you may consider putting socks and leg wraps to keep her legs and feet warm.  If you sprinkle the inside with powder it does help with the moisture, we don't want thrush either. 
We hope things go well today and please as Dr. Kellon mentioned if you can add the radiographs of the feet and or blood work it would be most helpful so experts can comment more.



Bobbie and Maggie 
Desi (over the rainbow bridge 7/21) 
Utah, Nov 2018
NRC Plus 2020, NAT, C&IR March 2021
ECIR Group Primary Response 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Maggie/Maggie%20and%20Bobbie%202021.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271156

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Cathy,

I put fresh socks on my horse every 24 hrs then a generous sprinkle of athletic foot powder in the boot before putting them on.  I use cheap men's cotten/polyester athletic socks that my husband is done with (its ok if there's holes in the heels), but if you want to add warmth a wool or wool blend sock is best.  This keeps their hooves very clean and no signs of thrush.  Make sure the hair lays flat under the socks and the socks are not tight over the tendons (I fold the socks back over the top of the boots, which also keeps the boots and their fastenings cleaner).  The texture of the sock can also promote circulation (there was a Bowker study looking at circulation in a bare hoof on concrete and a bare hoof on a wash cloth on concrete and the results are astounding--you can see the images in the No Laminitis conference proceedings on our website).

You do not need to test leptin.   And at this stage I don't think iron is necessary either.  Just baseline nonfasting insulin and glucose, and add ACTH if you suspect PPID (at her age it's extremely unlikely but not impossible).

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


talley_catherine@...
 

Thanks very much Dr Kellon. Have posted the xrays and will also post after today.
I have set her up to do non-fasted testing, 4 hours after first hay feed of the morning.
Have sent the info to the vet re proxies and will do ACTH (and maybe leptin too but not sure if it is available).
Regards
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


talley_catherine@...
 

Thank you very much, Kirsten. We are in summer here so warmth is not a problem lol! I actually was more worried about her feet overheating?
She is very comfortable in the boots so I will just try to keep them clean and leave them on as long as possible. I will try to find some socks. She has quite big feet so I am wondering what would even fit!
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cathy,

Just based on the x-rays there's a good deal that can be improved in her trim that would probably help her feel better.  Getting pictures of her posted as outlined in the Wiki would be very helpful (https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1482#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help) but getting her toes back and getting her in boots to help with the lack of sole would probably make her more comfortable.



talley_catherine@...
 

Thanks, Sherry. Yes, she has actually improved in appearance with the trims (has had 3 since these xrays) however, interestingly, it hasn't helped her discomfort but has seemed to make her more sensitive. Her soles are very sensitive. We just re xrayed this morning and the toes can come back a little bit still, also vet has recommended leaving the heel. I will post the updated xrays when I get them from the vet. 
She is loving the boots though - she is marching around now and even trotting spontaneously with them on.

I will get to the photos. I should have done them today when she was being xrayed but didn't think of it, unfortunately. I need to look up again what I need to do!! 
Thanks
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cathy,

I'd be very curious to see the current x-rays as I suspect her soles have been trimmed and she didn't have enough to start with so that would explain why she's so sensitive now.  What did the vet say about them?




Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I had the same impression as Sherry, it almost looks like her soles have been carved out (they may not have been, that's just what it looks like to me).  They are thin.  She needs hoof boots on at all times to protect them, and maybe pads in them, too.  You can tell right away the thin soles were the biggest problem by how much more she is moving in the boots.  However, the toes are very long in the rads, too.  It will be good to see if the new rads show an improvement.

Can you please label your uploaded xray images with the dates?  If you have new rads to post we will need to be able to distinguish between them.  Here are instructions on taking photos and naming radiographs and hoof photos properly:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR + PPID) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History
Shaku's Photo Album


talley_catherine@...
 

Hi Sherry,
No, her soles have not been trimmed for at least 6 months, maybe longer. The farrier used to trim her prior to that and she would always be a bit tender for about a week or so. I changed to a barefoot trimmer about 6 months ago and she has never taken any sole off since she started.

I actually suspect that the very wet weather may have contributed to some thinning and softening. (I have ordered some Keratex hoof hardener which I have found has worked well in the past so perhaps that will help).

When she was a yearling- 2yo she was very prone to abscesses so perhaps she also has a pre-disposition? The xray showed an old pedal osteitis and I am pretty sure I know when it happened as a 2yo but the vet I had then did not want to xray :( (I am far more directive with vets these days and only work with ones who are happy to do things the way I would like to try).

She has always been barefoot apart from once when she had some thrush and we needed to keep her off her frog a bit and put shoes on, but that was many years ago.
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


talley_catherine@...
 

Hi Kristen,

Thanks. See response to Sherry re soles - no trimming. The xrays are actually labelled with the dates and view. It is on the image. I will check the required labelling conventions too and try to update  - it is just a lot to take in at the start and I wanted to upload what I had.

The toes were long because she was always tender/sore if we took too much wall off. The xrays yesterday showed an improvement but there is still a little more that could come off, which is amazing because looking at her feet I would not have thought so. 

Yes, the thin soles are definitely an issue for pain. She looks very comfortable in the Cloud boots which do have a supportive soft pad inside.

(Can you have "just" thin soles, not laminitis? We are still trying to decide underlying aetiology, although her response to the Karo syrup with going very sore seems to indicate underlying laminitic problems).
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia


Sherry Morse
 

Hi Cathy,

Getting current hoof pictures will definitely be helpful.  You certainly can have issues with 'just' thin soles as well as poor hoof angulation.  That's one of the many reasons we emphasize getting a good realigning trim in place as soon as possible.




 

Hi Cathy,
It seems as though long toes and thin soles go ‘hand in hand’.  I like to think of the long toes stretching the sole and thinning it.  I’m not sure it’s technically correct but it serves as a reminder to me that the toes need to be kept short.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


talley_catherine@...
 

Hi Sherry, is there a "list" somewhere I can print out for when I do the photos? When I get outside with the horse it is hard to remember all the views/do's and dont's :) 
Thanks
--
Cathy
NSW Australia
Jan 2022

Saskia DOB 30/9/2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cathy%20and%20Saskia
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=271799


Nancy C
 

Not Sherry here, but try this.

Take the photos:

There are 4 different angles per foot needed for hoof evaluations:

1. Dorsal,

2. Lateral

3. Sole and

4. Sole Plane 1 or Sole Plane 2 . 


You can see what they look like  here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/1472

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2021-2022