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Urgent advice please. Think I overdosed Savannah with pergoloide.

Pat Gauvreau
 

I think I have overdosed Savannah for 3 days. I’m very concerned what the consequences will be. She hasn’t been eating all her mash for some time now which contains her pergoloide and was more lame than usual. She’s been getting 5mgs daily over winter but not eating all of it (about half) even when left over night. That’s why I increased it hoping she’d get enough from the little she did eat. I tried all sorts of ways to entice her into it (omitting vit/min supp and flax etc. adding Anise seeds and fenegreet powder to improve smell) but she still wouldn’t eat it. So 3 days ago I decided to syringe with a tsp of unsweetened apple sauce to make sure she got it. Today was the third day of syringing and it just occurred to me if she hasn’t been getting it in her mash, then I give her a full 5mg dose she may be overdosed all of a sudden. Should I stop giving her any for a few days or reduce amount in syringe? I couldn’t find any answers searching other than side effects when first introducing it.  Today she had mushy poo in her tail so it’s definitely bothering her gut. I would also say she seems lethargic. 
Hoping to get a response first thing in morning so I know what to do. 
Thanks in advance for any advice on this. I don’t know why it took me 3 days to realize what I’ve done. So glad to have this group to turn to in times like this. 
Thanks again. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

 
Edited

Not a vet here, Pat, but I think the larger concern is that Savannah has not been getting the meds she needs.  If her PPID is not adequately controlled, my experience is that you might well see veil signs when you increase pergolide.  I always administer pergolide separately from feed, because I stand there and watch until I know the pergolide has been consumed.  I have four horses and ponies on pergolide now, all with different administration techniques, from feeding in a very small amount of carrier to tucking it into the cheek to syringing it in.  I’ve also used a feed bag.  Have you checked her ACTH recently, Pat?  I looked at your case history and it hasn’t been updated in nearly two years, nor has the pergolide dose been changed since you started her on it.  You state you are giving 5 mg but your CH says 1.5 mg.  Spilling a lot of feed and not eating it well is something I came to associate with a need for a dosage increase.  That may not be the case with Savannah but it would be a red flag in my mind.
If I were in your position, I would add an adaptogen, such as APF, to her daily routine, dosing it directly into her mouth as it is too expensive to waste.  Jiaogulan is another option which is more available in Canada, I think.  Then I would quickly sort out what amount of pergolide I thought I was dosing, compare it to what I estimate she was getting and dose somewhere in between until she seems closer to normal again.  Once that happens, you can gradually increase the amount. Continue giving the adaptogen until she is comfortably adapted to your intended higher dose.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 

 

Hi, Pat.
Loose manure is better than very little or dry manure IMO. Is Savannah eating and drinking

When I overdosed my Paint (not being treated for PPID, ate 5 mg dose), she reacted by refusing to eat 13 lbs of overnight hay and her mineral supplements containing salt. She produced a fraction of the usual overnight manure. When she finally passed manure by late morning, half was very dry. Then it became very loose. She very very quiet.

I treated her more or less like a colic without the vet intervention. In addition to Martha's suggestions of APF and Jiaogulan , I did everything I know to entice her to drink and eat, starting with hand-fed salted wet hay.  I regularly offered her tepid water with a pinch of salt, me holding the bucket. I fed her many small meals of loose hay.  I tried a pound of RSR beet pulp mixed with salt and Stabul 1.  In short, I made it as enticing as possible to get small quantities of forage into her at regular intervals. 
 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History Folder                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History Folder              Diamond Photos 

Pat Gauvreau
 

Martha and Cass.
I really appreciated your comments today. I was relieved to see Savannah was still ok today when I got to barn. She ate all her hay but not her mash with the supplements in it (as usual). She drinks water normally, not excessively. She has been on Jaiagolan for probably two years as well as tested hay for over a year. Regular trims which Lavinia thought are heading the right direction. She’s had mad barn amino trace plus but not much anymore as she hates them, 1Tbsp iodized salt in feed plus free choice which she consumes fairly often, organic flax oil for vit E, stabilized Flax, soyhulls and Alfalfa Timothy cubes, (minute amounts of mag ox, copper, zinc, maganese but she refuses the smell so have to omit them). Tried Anise and Fenugreek as I read horses like the smell and/or taste but they didn’t make a difference. She’s very picky and sensitive to smell/taste ?? and walks away never to return to her mash even when left all night. I’m at a loss on how to get her to eat these required minerals. Sometimes I try just leaving them free choice but she never eats them. If I only offer the soaked cubes and soyhulls she does eat those. Today I only put 2mg pergoloide into the soaked cubes but she ate only half then walked away. I’m hoping she finishes that overnight. I’ll syringe 2mgs pergoloide tomorrow and slowly increase again but will stop at 3mgs since fall rise is coming to an end. I’ll observe and increase if necessary from there. There’s no finances left for X-rays or blood testing so I watch the hollows above her eyes to judge status of IR. Lameness comes and goes. Hay is $32/bale with prediction of shortage for next year.  Shavings for bedding is hard to find and very expensive to ship in since strike has been going on over 6 months on the island. It’s one thing after another it seems. Hard times for so many these days. We’re just taking it one day at a time hoping for the best.
My computer hasn’t worked for a long time and I can’t buy a new one so can’t update my CH.  I work from my IPhone only now.  I was adding trim photos monthly but haven’t uploaded those recently. 
I’m trying to stay positive for 2020. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Lorna Cane
 

Pat, go here for iphone help....
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Case%20History%20Form.pages
( hoping this works for you)

Some thoughts about eating supps.....
- be very sure her bucket is clean;
- start at square one, again, with just what she likes,then adding teeny amounts (not even 1/2 tsp ) of offending items. Keep at that teeny amount for maybe 4 days before attempting to add another teeny amount. And so on. Frustrating as hell, but she obviously needs her supps ; 
- find a method that will work to get the pergolide into her, and still remain friends....sticking capsule into a peanut shell works here.  If you're dealing with powder ,either syringe, as you mentioned or find something that will make a paste with it,which she will go for ; 
- watch for more signs than just hollows above her eyes....review symptoms...www.ecirhorse.org
- review how trim is going.

It's a struggle. But you two have come so far. You have proved you can do it.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 

Nancy C
 

Pat, go here for iphone help....https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Case%20History%20Form.pages( hoping this works for you)
Scroll to the bottom of the page to learn how to update via iPhone.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Bonnie
 

Pat, re the costs and having to scrimp and save, I hear you! Re shavings, I found a way to reduce the amount needed. I buy softwood stove pellets, fill a pail 1/3 full of pellets, and add a kettle of hot water. They instantly fluff up to fill the pail. I put this fluff in the centre of the stall and arrange the shavings over it. Most of the urine gets soaked up and forms a "pancake". This prevents the wetness from getting spread all through the stall. More efficient than using loose shavings only. BTW hardwood pellets are not nearly so absorbent.
In this area pellet stoves are common as backup heating in homes so pellets are readily available. However, the store stops bringing them in during summer so I must stock up in spring.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 

Lorna Cane
 

Another way to save on shavings is by using the deep bedding method. 

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/deep-litter-bedding-horses-604511

This article mentions breathing/dust issues with this method. It also mentions urine smell. I have never had any of this, and have used this method for decades, with numerous horses.
Important to be sure,though, that wet shavings are covered by dry. No odour.
Here cleanout is done in the Spring . If horses have to be stabled at night over the Summer, cleanout is also done in Fall.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

Were Savannah mine and I was concerned about being cost effective I would not be putting her meds in anything other than a syringe as that's the only way to be sure she's getting them all and you're not wasting them.  If she's turning her nose up at her grain because of the meds you're throwing out money in terms of feed and medication.  I'd also follow Lorna's recommendations on adding in the minerals very gradually so you know what - if any - she is objecting to if it's not just the medication in her feed.


Pat Gauvreau
 

Nancy

Thanks for link to IPhone CH help. I have family visiting all week but will look this up after they’re gone. Hope it’s not too complicated for me. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Pat Gauvreau
 

Sherry
Totally agree. Will be syringing from now on. Will go back to 2mgs and graduate back up as needed. I’ll also start adding minerals a few pellets at a time to sneak them back in as Lorna recommends. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Pat Gauvreau
 

Lorna
I use the deep bedding method under her shelter but in the stall there is concrete with rubber mats so won’t work there. She prefers to be under shelter rather than stall as the ground is much softer there. I hang 3 hay nets. One in stall and 1 under shelter and another one tied to tire out in the pasture so she has to walk around more to eat hay. She can choose wherever she wants to be as I never close her in the stall so she can move around more. I self board my horses so do all the work myself. No one cleans out in spring. I scrape out with rake everyday and top dress with clean shavings. I don’t use the wood pellets as they’re too hard for her feet if not booted. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Lorna Cane
 

Not meaning to press this point, but just adding that my deep bedding is on concrete, covered  by stall mats....concrete, stall mats, deep bed.
I'm not a fan of the wood pellets,either. They do need to be dampened down. I just couldn't make them work for me.

Like you ( although a few years older), I work alone, except for 2 hours a week.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 

jessica skene
 

Hi pat!

really nice commenta here to help! I had the really same problem as you!
my mare is a fussy eater and didn’t like mas barn aminotrace + a lot... she was really difficult to feed

one thing I really want you to know:
I 100% understand the struggle (and frustration), don’t discourage yourself! It will come! It will tale time... but it will come

So, I found that my mare is refusing her concentrates as soon as she don’t feel 100% right... it’s one of the really first thing that she changes

when tried the pergolide, she had a really big pergolide veil and was a bit down and not much interested in other food than hay... this may be something to explore!

i always give her meds seringed... she refuse 100% of meds in feed, so I lose vitamins that are not cheap and meds that are not cheap neither

when introducing new supplements, a bit of cocosoya really helped!
now I can just give a bit of canola oil... my mare refuse to eat her feed without a bit of oil to make all the powdery supplement glue to pelleted one (told you she was picky as hell ahahaha)

as other said, introducing all new thing really slowly is the way to go!

I know it’s hard but trial and error will be your bestfriend! Once you have found the right mix, you will stick to it for dear life ahah! 
-- 
Jessica Skene  - Abitibi, Québec, Canada
Sonara => Canadian X QH mare , 13 years old, historic of founder and Laminitis, IR / EMS

october 2017

Link to case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/SonaraCaseHistory2019.pdf
Link to album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10295&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Link to hay analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jessica%20Skene%20and%20Sonara/analysedefoin.pdf

Pat Gauvreau
 

Jessica 
I agree that when she doesn’t feel well from foot pain she’s goes off her mash but fortunately still eats all her hay. She’s never eaten the full dose of mad barn minerals because of the taste so I’ve only been able to give her half from the start.  It’s too bad we can’t add the sweet stuff to get them to take the meds and minerals.  
Syringing is definitely the best way to get the meds in but I have arthritis in both my hands and it’s hard to hold it and push the plunger in especially in these cold wet days. I’m short and she’s tall so holding her head up to make sure she swallows it isn’t easy either. 
Everything is so complicated and I don’t understand all the medical information and abbreviations when reading everyone’s messages looking for help. I get lost in all the terminology and math to calculate this and that. Just struggling along hoping things will resolve eventually.  Trial and error like you say. Keep on trucking.  I now understand why so many people with Cushings horses decide to put them down. That thought passes through my mind more times than I want to admit. I just love Savannah so much I can’t let her go just to make life easier for me. The effort and expense can be overwhelming. I envy the people that have success so I keep believing.
I’m so thankful for the ECIR Group because I know I’m not the only one struggling through the quagmire. It’s nice to have a support group to turn to when you’re lost and feel hopeless. 
Thanks for commenting. I really appreciate it. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Pat,

I'm not sure about the shipping to Canada part so you may want to see if you can find this locally, but for dosing horses if you have issues with your hands I highly recommend a dose syringe with a long nozzle - much easier to use than a regular syringe.  This is the version I use https://www.valleyvet.com/ct_detail.html?pgguid=487A8E94-F6A4-441A-A2EA-348B93077098


Bonnie
 

Good for you, Pat. You have managed Savanna's needs far better than many owners would. Yes, it's hard when an owner's physical challenges get in the way. And for those of us challenged by MATH (uugh!) it's good to know we can ask for help.
 
May I suggest making a Cheat Sheet? When you come across an abbreviation that confuses you, write it down. When you have a bit of time, look up the abbreviation, or ask someone, and make a simplified note about it. For example "Alcar = a white powder that helps regulate blood sugar and insulin." or "ODTB = safe hay cubes made by Ontario Dehy." Keep your cheat sheet handy by the computer. We can succeed in looking after our animals without knowing every detail, just as we can bake a cake without thinking about the chemical properties of baking powder **as long as we follow the recipe**. Love is an important ingredient. You've got that in abundance.

Maybe some Cocosoya would help Savanna take her minerals and meds? It smells wonderful!

For sure I am not the only one following Savanna's progress, There are many interested in how you are doing. You are not alone.



--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 

Lorna Cane
 

Go here:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here

Scroll down 5 to Commonly Used Abbreviations.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 

Pat Gauvreau
 

Lorna
Thanks for the link to the abbreviation list. I printed it so it will be very helpful in future. 

--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

Pat Gauvreau
 

Bonnie
i wish I could get cocosoya locally but the feed stores don’t carry them and when I’ve tried to buy some of the products mentioned on this group on-line I find out they don’t ship to Canada. Even Ukulele doesn’t ship to Canada. It must be the ingredients causing customs to disallow. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0