Ventral Line Edema and PPID


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi 

Has anyone experienced ventral line edema in conjunction with some related effect of PPID.

This week we had a horrible wind storm causing a bit of havoc at the barn, Summer had clearly been pacing in her paddock and I noted yesterday that she had some ventral line edema starting in front of her udders and then settling in two patches adjacent to her sternum bilateral.

Today the edema seems to have traveled down her front legs.  And with movement it did dissipate.

Is this symptomatically PPID or is this something else?  She also had a bit of GI disruption from presumably stress, so not sure if I was related to that.

However I will say she had a similar episode this time last year but the edema was worse in the front legs.  Could this be related to an-eatrus and is there anything I need to ne on the watch for insulin wise or ppid?

She is on 5mg estradiol and 0.50 prascend.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy,

This has been reported with pergolide but also sounds like you have a strong component of not moving around enough.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Dr Kellon, Summer is worked every day for at least 30 mins at walk trot canter. 

Would a stress response from the wind rain and roof almost coming off play a role st all?

Thanks Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Frances C.
 

Ventral line edema - my mare has this condition but it does not seem to vary much - a hard leadrope like structure that my vet thought was maybe fat but I don't think so. Incidentally this mare's sire who was PPID/IR also had this edema. We too endured the recent storm where the horses huddled in their inadequate shelter for five days. If this had been snow rather than rain all the buildings would have collapsed so we have something to be thankful for.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


 

Interesting. My Paint mare had just the start of edema on one side only starting at the udder. We had that run of very warm weather two weeks ago, and I thought it might be some insect hatch that bit her the only place they could find exposed skin. Seems early for culicoides/midges, but my mares were switching their tails. 

My Paint predicts violent storms with extreme agitation. I tried Ashwaganda this time, and it seemed to help her a bit. I don't think it works with other adaptogens on board, but I just suspended J-herb for a few days. It's a thought when future extreme weather is predicted. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy,

Exercise will decrease it for a while but when weather conditions are harsh they don't do as much moving around. No connection with stress that I can think of.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


 

My horse vet and I have both had ventral line edema associated with pigeon fever that was either internal, or developed later as the typical pigeon chest.  In both cases, it was quite some time before we connected the edema to the onset of the pigeon fever.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Update, so last night Summer started one of her bad cycles coming out of the pause. Inam assuming perhaps the edema had to do with that.

Today she is highly distracted, concerned about everything and starting to press. These are.her very typical behaviors during a  bad cycle this time of year.

I don't want to start CTB because I did notice she has gotten a little harder crest ap don't want the CTB to interfere with pergolide. 

She is on 5mg estradiol should I increase her dosage to alleviate some of these hormonal issues? 

Thx Nancy 
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy,

CTB won't interfere with pergolide.

I wouldn't give estradiol or any other hormone without a full hormonal panel - estrogen, progesterone, FSH, LH.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I will start her on CTB, I did think there was interference.

We did the hormone panel in July prior to starting her on estradiol in Aug.  That is uploaded and all was normal and neg for granulosa cell tumor.. The only thing we couldn't get was FSH and LH because the lab that was sent no longer did those panels ans UCD didn't have enough sample left.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 


Maria Duran
 

Hi Nancy,

If this is of some help, Yayo had ventral edema and swollen hind pasterns when I increased his dose from 0.25 to 0.50 of prascend. It was not horrible but it was obvious. It solved by itself and lasted about 15 days or so.

Best wishes.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks Maria, I think Summer's situation was a little different, hers is already resolved. We also have not increased her pergolide.  Thanks for the info though.

Nan
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hey all I wanted to post an update on this after doing a search for pigeon fever.

Summer was hospitalized at UCD  4/10 through 4/17 for what presented initially on 4/9 as colic but then the following day 4/10 she was febrile on banamine. 

She ended up being a complicated case that UCD really never figured out the root cause. She was treated for peritonitis and azotemia and what was thought to be an atypical displacement.

During her stay at the hospital they did umpteen ultrasounds abs belly taps and bloodwork etc..at one point exploratory abdominal surgery was on the table but the following day the plan changed as her symptoms changed/improved.

She was sent home with the understanding we needed to redo blood work but the peritonitis and atypical displacement were resolved.  She still had the presence of a low grade infection and mild azotemia.

Her 4/26 bloodwork improved her azotemia but the presence of a low grade infection prevailed.  Since she was still seemingly on the mend I have just been letting her be a horse and turn out etc.

Fast forward to last Wed, summer broke out in the worst hives I have ever seen from head to to with massive ventral line edema that ended in a 102 fever on Saturday.  Her guns have been bright red and this seems to coincide with the hives or fever onset.  She was treated with hydroxyzine for 3 days and then with the amt of edema pooling I her front legs and abdomen we gave her 5mg dex.  She started to improve. We pulled blood again and are testing for internal pigeon fever. 

Her cbc and chem came back azotemia resolved, fibrinogen normal but still fighting a low grade infection. 

Since Saturday, her fever broke Sunday am, but then she spiked a fever again yesterday but it held with banamine. This morning it was normal but I could still feel that internal heat from her body.  The hives have mostly resolved and the edema is about 85% improved.

Her internal pigeon fever test is still pending but the vets are stumped.

Couple of questions:

1:If this is pigeon fever are there drugs antibiotics tor antimicrobials are contraindicated for IR/PPID horses?

2: if this isn't pigeon fever, does anyone have any experience with what this could be and a treatment or diagnostic recommendations.  My GP vet suggested that perhaps we go back to UCD for more of their diagnostics should the pigeon fever test come back negative-- but after a week in April of not finding anything--and honestly my vet bills this year have exceeded 20k because of Vinnie, Summer and my dog Hayley, (and we just had to replace our hvac at another 7k and my hubby had hip replacement surgery which is still pending billing of our portion,)  so I am hoping for a more targeted approach to diagnostics.

Thanks in advance.  I will update CH and post bloodwork..it has just been a crazy 3 months for me. When it rains....

Thanks Nancy 


--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


TERRI JENNINGS
 

Hi Nancy,
First of all, I have no experience with pigeon fever. But what you are describing in the last week sounds much like an episode Teeny had a few years ago around this time of year. She started out with a few hives on her barrel but later progressed to what my vet called a “shelf”. The swelling was over the entire underside of her body and the way it protruded from her barrel it looked like a shelf.  It extended from her chest all the way back to her udders. She was extremely itchy.  After ultrasounds, multiple blood draws, every test the vets could think of, exercise, topical treatments, antibiotics, etc.,  I still had a very unhappy and very swollen Teeny a month later with very little improvement.   I very reluctantly, after lots of coaxing from my vet, gave her dex for a few days and she had her first laminitic episode. Of course I felt terrible but the edema resolved, the itching resolved and luckily the laminitic episode was mild.  


I hope Summer feels better soon,

--
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Terri%20and%20Teeny
Joined 2019


hdavis
 

Oh no Nancy!!!  I just wanted to send a note to say I am sending thoughts ans prayers for u and Summer that u get this figured out and resolved quickly. You have been thru a lot this year!  Sorry I have nothing to add to help :(
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819 


Storm

Case History


 




Frances C.
 

Nancy, is internal pigeon fever as contagious as regular pigeon fever? Is there evidence of an outbreak in your area? Maybe ask around the local community. - I am sorry to hear of your ongoing battles- You are a warrior!
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks everyone!!   Hi Frances, fromwhat I understand pigeon fever is only contagious while the external abcesses are draining from the pus. 

I got to speak with my main vet last night who had been put of town for a couple weeks, she reviewed the bloodwork and she really doesn't think this will be internal pigeon fever because her WBC is not consistent with and internal.abcess, but she does feel it is related to the peritonitis. Perhaps just the infection that has been unresolved and her immune system is not managing to resolve it by itself.  So we have a plan now we will put into action soon. I will post an update.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Nancy & Vinnie & Summer