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Vinegar for insulin/glucose regulation

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

I learned recently that vinegar with meals reduces insulin response and lowers glucose in humans with insulin resistance and type II diabetes.  Has this group ever tried or discussed whether giving vinegar with meals could do the same in horses?  It sounds like 1 Tbsp given 2x/day with meals is effective in humans in reducing post-meal insulin and glucose spikes, and one study suggested it is just as effective at lowering fasting glucose long-term as Metformin (in pre-diabetic humans).  It also increases satiety in normal-weight humans, which reduces calorie consumption.

If one was to try this, any thoughts on what vinegar dose to give a horse? 

Some references:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26064976/
https://care.diabetesjournals.org/content/27/1/281
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28292654/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19269707/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756464613001874

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

mary odonnell
 

Hi i was wondering this myself a couole months ago. Apple cider vinegar with "the mother". It does improve insulin sensitivity with humans some studies say and i thought wow wonder if it would work on our horses who both have high insulin. One on metformin and thyrol now and sammy who is on invokana and prascend. 
Would love to hear of anyone thats tried! 
--
mary odonnell in NY 2019

mary odonnell
 


-- kirsten,

I saw this article awhile back abt giving horses Apple cider vinegar. Scroll to number 2 and read about it aiding in digestion. Mentions blood sugar etc

https://www.savvyhorsewoman.com/2014/12/apple-cider-vinegar-for-horses-top-10.html



mary odonnell in NY 2019

@Clareybox
 

Hi Kirsten,

I’m very interested to hear what people’s experience is with vinegar, my mares insulin recently came back at 139 (fasted!), and she’s on 30000mg metformin BID. Has anyone had any success with cinnamon supplementation? There are human studies that have shown effect when using cassia cinnamon to help moderate diabetes. I’m looking for any other options to get her insulin under control.

Thanks,

Clare 
--
Clare in NS, Canada

LJ Friedman
 

why did you run insulin test fasted?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

@Clareybox
 

The vet wanted the insulin result without any raise from feed, that’s how she’s always had her levels checked. 
--
Clare in NS, Canada 2020
Cory; IR/EMS 2000 ASB mare

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Kirsten and all --

I've had some experience with my diabetic and very high insulin boy Beau before he passed.  I was feeding 1 cup 2xs per day.  We were doing this to help jump start his mineral absorption.  No matter what form and how much Mag we gave him, he did not absorb well. To me this was a big piece of the puzzle as to why we could not bring his hyperinsulinemia under control.

We never saw a change in insulin and glucose with adding 2 cups of vinegar per day.  His diet was squeaky clean; his PPID under control: he was iron overloaded.

In addition, to speak to Clare's question -- Cinnamon did not have effect either. This is true not only for my horse when he was diabetic,  but also majority of horses on ECIR who have tried it.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA

LJ Friedman
 

You do know that’s not correct. unfed  horses do not give you correct insulin levels.
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Thanks Nancy!  So is it the official position of ECIR that vinegar does not have the same effect in horses that it does in people?  Or do you think Beau was so iron overloaded that nothing would help? 

For cinnamon, I believe the effect is on glucose, not insulin, and that it's important to note that the effect on glucose is seen from the much cheaper and more widely available "cassia" cinnamon.  But "cassia" cinnamon, also known as Chinese cinnamon—or probably what you’re getting at the store, if it just says cinnamon—contains a compound called coumarin, which may be toxic to the liver in high enough doses."  Ceylon or vernum cinnamon doesn't have the toxin, but neither does it have the effect on blood sugar in humans.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Nancy C
 

Hi Kirsten. 


Im on the road otherwise I would do a search on cinnamon. My recollection is that regardless of type it has not worked in horses. It did not effect Beau’s glucose. 


I will have to leave the explanation of vinegar to Dr Kellon. I do not believe iron overload played a role but can be corrected. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kristen,

Not sure if you searched the archives, but you may have missed this note from Nancy last December: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/245150

Cinnamon was trialed here years ago and while popular due to human meds, has not been found to work in horses. ECIR has not routinely recommended it for at least a decade.

From our files: Cinnamon is no longer routinely recommended. It had been hoped to improve insulin sensitivity, but instead it may lower blood sugar (glucose) without lowering insulin levels. Since most IR horses have glucose in the normal ranges, cinnamon sometimes lowers it too much. For that reason, the ECIR Group doesn't use it routinely. If you have a horse that is a true diabetic - high glucose - then cinnamon may be helpful.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020


And from Dr. Kellon last July:https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/237865




Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Thanks!  I'm only asking about vinegar.  Not interested in giving cinnamon because it can be toxic at quite low doses.  When I searched all I found were messages on using vinegar for soaking hooves and for killing grass.  Didn't see anything on feeding it...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Lorna in Ontario
 

Can you reference cinnamon toxicity in horses, Kirsten?
I feed it as a taste tempter  when appropriate.

Thanks.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php

mary odonnell
 

I posted a horse website, not clincial studies or anything but i guess anecdotal. It did talk about apple cider vinegar and effects on horses internally regarding insulin.  Did u see it?
--
mary odonnell in NY 2019

 

Hi Clare,

Prior to my mare officially being tested for IR I had suspected she was (she was very young when showing signs) so I started her on cinnamon and a few other herbs concoctions that were alleged to help humans. The cinnamon did nothing. Her numbers didn't budge til her diet was tightened, exercise increased and my final step was balancing her hay.  I have not personally used ACV for insulin but I know humans who were and it didn't budge their numbers either. Many years ago I tried ACV with the horses for bug control and my dogs for flea control and digestion etc....honestly the horses wouldn't touch the stuff....the dogs hated it and I tried for awhile and sometimes I could get them to take it but for the most part was unsuccessful and gave up. Personally I still feel that what may work for one doesn't for another and I am not sure about some "studies" that are done that make claims....were they actually done with a  placebo group or did people who decided to use ACV for insulin/glucose regulation...did they also make diet changes that were actually responsible for numbers changing. The words "can" and "may" in statements make my spidy senses go up.....I love ACV topically for things and use it all the time but internally not so much. I am sure others with more experience will have more fact base information but this was just my personal experience.

--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The vinegar issue is complicated. As Kirsten documented, effects have been seen in humans. Interestingly, they have not in mice. Equine glucose metabolism is a completely different issue from either. Vinegar is basically acetic acid, which is acetate in the pH of the mammalian body. Acetate is aka a ketone body and as such will be send one of two basic messages to the body - we're exercising heavily or we're starving. Some molecular insights here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26075576/ . However, acetate is also the major fermentation product produced in the equine large intestine so the levels naturally present in equine blood and tissues is already going to be very high and not influenced much, if at all, by a small amount of vinegar.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Frances C.
 

So does apple cider vinegar (mothered) alter the Ph value in the hind gut? What would an alteration in Ph do to the biomass there?  Could it be used to increase appetite? Could you feed enough to have any effect?  ACV in water to mask the taste?
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Lorna, not in horses.  But cassia cinnamon exceeds the safe upper limit of coumarin consumption at 1/4 tsp a few days a week for a human child, and 1 tsp a day for most adults ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511006703  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20024932/).  Unfortunately in adults, the effect on blood sugar are only seen at ~1 tsp a day (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19159947/).  So to see an effect on blood sugar, a human would potentially be exposing themselves to enough coumarin to damage their liver.  If its toxic for humans, I would hesitate to feed it to my horse, even though it may not be toxic for horses we don't know what doses are safe for horses.  Shaku has enough problems already! :)

Thanks Mary, I did see it!  I really wanted to see that there is some background research though, but for horses it appear that there is no research.  The author of that article is making a supposition based on human studies, and while its likely harmless I'd want to know if its actually helpful. Dr. Kellon has now clarified it more by basically saying its highly unlikely to be helpful...  I had hoped enough members here had tried it to be able to report whether or not vinegar actually helped, even if it was anecdotal.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Lorna in Ontario
 

Thanks,Kirsten. I had mistakenly thought you were talking about horses.
I've never "dosed" it with my horses,since they haven't had glucose issues, but rather just sprinkled it on feed bucket as taste tempter.

It generally is declined if the sprinkle is too large....it can be pretty strong for horses, just in my experience....but many like just  a pinch of it .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php