I'm concerned about her being able to drink water with the muzzle.
I know they can but she might be hesitant or something. If she were
to colic from not enough water that would just be TOO MUCH!

She actually doesn't have the ol' spark in her eye. She is not happy. Her little goat runs after her & stands with her whereever she goes & so I know she is not feeling good as he is like her "protector" whenever she is not feeling well.

No, she's not getting any treats or Alfalfa.

I've already talked about her feet. Pete Ramey looked at her feet, xrays & someone he recommended also Dave @ Equicast, etc, etc, etc.
LIke I said MANY have seen her feet & they are pathological but I am doing all that can be done there.

Her appetite is very good tho' & she has been walking more since
putting the new casts with pads on her.

anyhow, thanks for all the ideas but still don't know what is the cause.
sky

Hi, Sky - Yes, you are quite right to be concerned about her not drinking, if the muzzle is on 24/7. Somehow, I had the idea that she was on the perimeter track with not grass, and only out on the other part for a few hours a day. Still, I maintain that given the fact that she is having problems, no access to any grass or stubble is important right now.

The triggers: possibly PPID (bloodwork will tell you); possibly Lyme disease; possibly the trim; possibly access to grass; possibly cold-induced laminitis.

Sorry to hear there is no spark in her eye; but happy to hear she is still eating, and is moving around more.

You will know more when the blood results come in.

Hang in there.

Jaini(BVSc)Merlin,Maggie,Gypsy
BC09
EC Support

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory/files/Jaini%20Clougher%2C%20Smithers%20BC/

There are only very few on the market that provide the correct amount of life bacteria to be efficient for equines, sadly. So I would make sure yours does (starting at 10 billion CFU and up in her daily dosage).

Did you try to up the jiaogulan? It took three times his usual dosage to get our Larry comfortable.

Jennifer in Germany
Laramie July 2011

I read in earlier posts to not give J herb with active Laminitis & then some are telling me to give it, so am confused about this. I have some tho'.

I was giving Yaa Sacc but quit that bc it was pretty new to her diet but am now givng EM1.
sky
oregon 2009


http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/CopperTop-%20Oregon/

Hi sky

It's rarely any one thing that puts them over the edge.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

NewEnglandEquineBalance@...

Sky: I just want to say I feel the same as you: "What do I do next and for how long?". I have been battling to save my Sparky's life for several years. Most of that time I was just wishing and hoping and praying.. . . until I joined this group. Now I am armed with different strategies that I scientifically apply as best I can. It actually makes me feel a whole lot better emotionally. The vet could not provide me with the same experiential approach. I have come to the point of letting Sparky go several times but he didn't look like he wanted to die that day. I must add that he is my favorite horse of all time. I have had my IR Boy Sparky for 14 years since he was caught wild in south Eastern Oregon at the age of 2. I think horses are more tolerant of pain than humans. If he feels sore, he simply lays down. He enjoys laying in the deep sawdust in the sunny part of his shelter. Please read what I wrote about casts and eva pads. I have tried many different boots and I like Soft Ride the best. Chronic laminitis sucks, but in my cast the reason that it went chronic is because of the lack of information available to me and my vet. It seems that only recently that scientists are correlating the role high levels of insulin play in the onset of acute laminitis. Don't be discouraged. Eventually the truth will be revealed. And the information you are gathering will go towards helping horses and owners battle this horrible disease in the future. Most horse owners are unaware that Colic is the number #1 cause of premature death in horses and Laminitis/Founder is #2. You are your horses hero. Keep up the good work. Best of Luck, Annette

Annette Scherr
Member since Jan 2011
Southern California
ascherr@...
annettescherr@...
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Sparky/
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjvUiGq3

--- In EquineCushings@..., "Annette" <annettescherr@...> wrote:

Sky: I just want to say I feel the same as you:....... He enjoys laying in the deep sawdust in the sunny part of his shelter. ...... Don't be discouraged. Eventually the truth will be revealed. ..... Most horse owners are unaware that Colic is the number #1 cause of premature death in horses and Laminitis/Founder is #2. You are your horses hero.

Annette Scherr

Annette, That was a good message. Thank you. I've always said the two scariest words are colic and founder. Now with this group we have light at the end of the founder tunnel!

Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL. Nov. 2011

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:51 PM, gypsylassie <lcknie@...> wrote:

Now with this group we have light at the end of the founder tunnel!

Laura, love your sentence above!!! A wonderful way to put it. My Icelandic

is one of the success stories (well, his insulin is still a little high), but he
foundered in April 2010 and spent months laying down in his stall much of
the time, then slowly began to move around a little in his Soft Ride boots,
then a little more and more and finally racing around and throwing the
boots off half the time!!! At about the one year mark, my farrier said I
could start riding him again and we never looked back!!! I don't ride
as much as I should this time of year, but a couple of times a week and
we do the Paddock Chase most evenings before the horses go in the
barn. I chase them around the paddock with the longe whip and we
all have a great time! You should see all the bucking and kicking!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

--- In EquineCushings@..., Ferne Fedeli <fedelif@...> wrote:

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:51 PM, gypsylassie <lcknie@...> wrote:

Now with this group we have light at the end of the founder tunnel!

Laura, love your sentence above!!! ... My Icelandic

is one of the success stories......... we
all have a great time! You should see all the bucking and kicking!
Ferne Fedeli
No. California
4/2010

Ferne, I love that visual!! ... I just had hip surgery so my husband is doing the IR regimen of many little meals and hand walking. (Yes, he is a blessing) It's been 9 mths. since Chappie's founder.... I hobbled out to the arena to watch him walking and first he said Mom's here...cookies! (celery & peanuts now) Then he bucked and ran around showing off. Such a good feeling. It's hard to be patient when they're in pain but with this group's guidance and a new approach to feeding they can come back.

Laura K. Chappie & Beau
N.IL. Nov. 2011

Wow Annette,
I don't know if I could go thru' what you have gone thru' with Sparky!
I'm so sorry you both have had to suffer this. :-(
Thankyou for your words of encouragement.

What did you say about casts & eVA's? Ididn't see it!

I hope things get better for you real soon!

Best,
sky

Wow, what alot of good stories & great advice!
Thank you all so much for standing with me in this!
sky
oregon 2009

Aloha! I haven't followed your whole thread here, so excuse me if I duplicate thoughts. Maybe some of my experience could be helpful.

I'll just tell you what I did with my 28 yo, IR Andalusian. About a year ago, his foot tenderness really began to progress quickly, no matter what I did, and his feet were quickly progressing towards the "canoe look" of foundered feet. (Prior to that he had been barefoot at home, with boots used for riding or trail exercise, but not what you could call robust foot-wise.) Through some online reading, I realized that I had probably precipitated his foot decline by giving him one of those big, brown, mineral salt blocks – the iron in the block was blocking the absorption of copper. I began supplementing copper and zinc at the best amount I could figure. I have since found out through the analysis of the hay and alfalfa pellets that I give him, and taking Dr. Kellon's NRC Plus course, that his diet had been chronically high in iron and low in copper and zinc. Even so, with the guessed at amounts of added copper and zinc, I saw major improvement in his comfort level in only 3 weeks, and I began to make slow progress in reversing the deterioration of his feet. His feet still looked awful but foot pain was not an issue from that point forward. I am now giving Cu and Zn to NRC 100% - 150% levels and making sure the ratios of iron:copper:zinc is 4:1:3.. Since my iron is high, I haven't taken the ratio of manganese up to 1:3 with copper, but just left it at NRC levels.

From the point at which I started the copper and zinc supplementation, I did the founder trim ala my Pete Ramey DVDs, cutting back into the lamellar wedge in front and taking the heels down as much as the geometry and my degree of daring allowed. The Easycare Gloves with the gaiters that I used 24/7 to allow him to move comfortably, began to chafe the low heel bulbs, so I began to use the Easycare Glove glue-ons with comfort pads inserted. The feet were dried with a heat gun before applying the glue-ons and they stayed pretty clean and sweet inside the glue-on for 2-3 weeks. I tried to put a bevel of the glue around the top of the glue-on to keep wetness out. (I don't have deep, wet mud in my yard. The stable, interlocked, gravel base layer makes the yard very stable in torrential rain, and we do get 60 - 100 inches per year, so we are a wet location. My horses also have a large open barn to shelter in. The front area is hard packed clay where they hang out – the back is 3-4' deep in wood chips where they poop and pee.) The glue-ons generally came off in about 2 weeks, so it was relatively easy to re-trim the feet, clean up the boots and glue them back on. As the recovery progressed I would even leave the glue-ons for 3 weeks. I did the glue-ons for about 5-6 months, at which time he kicked them off and showed me that he didn't need them anymore. Since then he has gone barefoot in the yard (which is gravel and rock over clay) and also when I take him out for light walks or rides. He walks barefoot on gravel over hard surfaces without wincing. I'm still cutting back the toes as they need it, but the feet look relatively normal to the casual observer. The lateral balance of the front feet went off during the episode and it has taken a long time to slowly correct it because there was not enough growth to allow correction. They are not perfectly balanced yet, but are not too bad.

He has progressed in arthritis in his knees over the last year, and in my mind, the whole episode included a basic disruption in the calcium and God knows what. I've tried using MSM at 20 g per day or more during the inflammatory phases per info. from Dr. Kellon. As of three weeks ago, I'm also giving him a small amount of daily bute for the arthritis and that seems to be helping to the point that he wants to be frisky and play dominance games with me – his natural state. I learned from the equine nutrition course that if the electrolytes are not adequate or the horse is getting an inappropriate level of grains, the cation-anion balance goes out of whack, puts the horse into an acidifying state with low levels of bicarbonate, and the calcium, instead of being retained as a bicarbonate complex, is converted into ionic calcium which is removed by the kidneys and excreted in the urine. I didn't think that was a good idea, so I started adding Redmonds salt right in the ration, instead of relying on a salt block. I am also really trying to ensure that Ca:P ratio is always correct at 1.2:1 TO 2:1

Hope this is helpful.

Liz Martinez

*****Hi sky

It's rarely any one thing that puts them over the edge.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
********

I'm a little late on this thread (as usual) but just wanted to chime in, that my recent experience really underscores that laminitis is like a predator - relax your guard and it slips right in the gate. Between the amount of nibblies my mule found in her "dry lot" (this is the time of year in So. Cal when our grass tries to grow), and my high ESC bermuda hay (8.9% ESC, .5% starch), she got footsore. It was a big wake up call for me for sure, because I thought I had things so "under control" that I'd even ignored some early warning signs, such as her hardening crest. It's something I will never again let myself get complacent about.

She's OK now (she likes soaked hay, dislikes being penned up, and REALLY HATES her grazing muzzle!!), but I sure learned a lesson.



Katie Reid
Ramona, CA
Member since 8/08

Hey Liz. When I get back my hay results, I may try to add Cu and Zinc if necessary to counteract the Iron. I already give him California Trace http://www.californiatrace.com/ingredients.html, a commercially available mineral combination aimed specifically at addressing the most common deficits in most California hays. (Although most of my hay comes from Southern Oregon) I am using Softrides because they are so SOFT! I have some easy boot gloves on hand but how do you glue on the gloves with a pad??? Do you glue the pad to the boot and then the pad to the hoof??? Also, isn't the glue toxic???? Have you tried casting eva pads???? equicast.com it's 6:15 am here in california. better get ready for work!

Annette Scherr & Sparky(IR not PPID) Mustang
Member since Jan 2011
Southern California
ascherr@...
annettescherr@...
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/ECHistory5/files/Sparky/
http://flic.kr/s/aHsjvUiGq3

I already give him California Trace http://www.californiatrace.com/ingredients.html, a commercially available mineral combination aimed specifically at addressing the most common deficits in most California hays.

Just a reminder -

California Trace does not address any imbalances or deficits of calcium, phosphorus nor magnesium. While the trace minerals are very important to supplement, the majors play an equally important role. It's just that the majors are so very different and not predictable as with the traces.

I used California Trace only for quite awhile until I finally got my first hay analysis done. Then used it as my base to build the rest of my supplementation on, which often included adding a lot more copper and zinc.

Linda
EC Primary Response
West Coast
May 2004